rec.bicycles.racing
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.racing?hl=enrec.bicycles.racing@googlegroups.com
Today's topics:
* Cadel's drug test results.. - 1 messages, 1 author
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.racing/t/ab0df9dabf534128?hl=en
* The Ride of Shame - Mark Cavendish in 4" heels just like a slut in Manhattan
heading home at 8 AM - 1 messages, 1 author
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.racing/t/c69456e1ab39719b?hl=en
* 2011 TDF a boring race - 1 messages, 1 author
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.racing/t/d19806b313dc8185?hl=en
* Refining choice for a shorter crank. Re: Crank length selection and seat
position. - 3 messages, 3 authors
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.racing/t/6c8039f828f97835?hl=en
* I didn't dream this - 6 messages, 4 authors
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.racing/t/c3911a80efcc65e3?hl=en
* Market value of Cervelo & BMC - 3 messages, 3 authors
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.racing/t/9e4f5f2b3efb3b81?hl=en
* Photos of Armstrong In Grenoble and/or Paris - 3 messages, 3 authors
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.racing/t/8f20bc81b62ad48c?hl=en
* Moron is only spelled with 1 m - update from Utah on Action Figurine in Jail
- 1 messages, 1 author
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.racing/t/50c7e60b00992b3a?hl=en
* Most bizarre moments of final stage - 2 messages, 2 authors
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.racing/t/7107ac85e5422ced?hl=en
* Did I dream this? - 4 messages, 2 authors
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.racing/t/c02c7010d067493b?hl=en
==============================================================================
TOPIC: Cadel's drug test results..
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.racing/t/ab0df9dabf534128?hl=en
==============================================================================
== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Tues, Jul 26 2011 8:21 am
From: Crescentius Vespasianus
When do we get Cadel's blood test results?
We learned with Landis, to wait a while to see who really won, no?
==============================================================================
TOPIC: The Ride of Shame - Mark Cavendish in 4" heels just like a slut in
Manhattan heading home at 8 AM
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.racing/t/c69456e1ab39719b?hl=en
==============================================================================
== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Tues, Jul 26 2011 8:51 am
From: Uncle Dave
On Jul 26, 9:11 am, atriage <atri...@satriage.net> wrote:
> On 26/07/2011 09:00, Uncle Dave wrote:
>
> > Anyway, I'm pleased Cavendish won the green jersey at last. Maybe now
> > he'll stop poncing around and get back to what he does best -
> > partnering Wiggins in the madison.
>
> Yeah that was some double act. I think the world champeenship is the next thing
> on the agenda. This year's TdF seems to indicate we should be able to put
> together a strong team.
Um, I was joking. The last thing either of them should do is go back
to the track - except for the odd Six maybe - though the draw of
London 2012 might prove too much.
UD
==============================================================================
TOPIC: 2011 TDF a boring race
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.racing/t/d19806b313dc8185?hl=en
==============================================================================
== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Tues, Jul 26 2011 8:56 am
From: Fredmaster of Brainerd
On Jul 26, 3:35 pm, "FAT" <some...@microsoft.com> wrote:
> "Fredmaster of Brainerd" wrote in messagenews:c29468dd-c384-4800-ad6b-733d014a8b53@bl1g2000vbb.googlegroups.com...
>
> On Jul 26, 2:50 pm, "FAT" <some...@microsoft.com> wrote:
>
> > Intelligence not your strong suit, is it?
>
> > "atriage" wrote in message
>
> >news:0L2dncXk_oEUWrDTnZ2dnUVZ7o2dnZ2d@brightview.co.uk...
>
> > On 25/07/2011 20:40, FAT wrote:
>
> > > As bad as the NBA. Turn it on right at the end, tie score, see what
> > > happens.
> > > Boring until then.
>
> > Shut the fuck up you top-posting pant-stain.
>
> Dumbass,
>
> A bike race's winner is determined at the end.
>
> If this bothers you, watch another sport where the winner
> is predictably determined before the end.
>
> Or just go out and ride your Madone. Do you have a
> chicken on the seat tube yet?
>
> Thanks,
> Fredmaster Ben
> The IQ limit on this NG must be set pretty low. Read this very s-l-o-w-l-y,
> all sporting events determine the winner at the end.
>
Dumbass,
I fixed your top-post for you.
There are a lot of sporting events where the winner is
inevitable partway through the competition. Like a running
race where someone pulls away halfway through, or a
baseball pennant race that isn't close. Or a 3 week
grand tour where somebody gets an insurmountable
lead after one time trial and a couple of mountain stages.
Did you think this year's Tour was less interesting than
this year's Giro? If you don't know what the Giro is,
you can make up an answer and get full credit, because
it's still July.
Thanks,
Fredmaster Ben
==============================================================================
TOPIC: Refining choice for a shorter crank. Re: Crank length selection and
seat position.
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.racing/t/6c8039f828f97835?hl=en
==============================================================================
== 1 of 3 ==
Date: Tues, Jul 26 2011 9:10 am
From: "Steve Freides"
thirty-six wrote:
> On Jul 26, 3:38 am, "Steve Freides" <st...@kbnj.com> wrote:
>> thirty-six wrote:
>
>>> I'm trying to sort out that formula to help others.
>
>>
>> You've answered this one already by yourself - you know what works
>> for you, so use it.
>
> First of all, I don't know what works best or with least effort per
> mile. It could well be that a 5" or 6" long crank be best. Does the
> way I've assessed for correct length stand up to scrutiny and so used
> for others or is there a damning reason to go shorter still? I do
> understand the claim for an aerodynamic pursuiters position being
> benefitted by shorter cranks to assist in breathing and reduce
> aerodynamic drag. That's not a particular requirement for me. A 5"
> crank would also require a frame change, so the evidence would have to
> be strong to get me to that size. I suspect that I should be able to
> use 100mm in saddle length which would indicate that the cranks need
> to be around 50mm shorter than they are (just because I'm so
> restricted with them). But this would suggest 120mm cranks. Even a
> 5" (127mm) crank sounds too small, but I've been conditioned to 165 to
> 175 as the norm.
There is no "perfect" to be had here. As engineers say, everything is a
compromise. You have to pick you priorities.
As but one example, I'm sure a lot of pro's hate their TT position but,
as long as it doesn't get them injured, that's just tough luck for them
because performance comes before everything else when you're getting
paid for your performance.
Don't forget, either, that track bikes (your example of pursuiters) are
fixed gears and, as such, crank length has at least a somewhat different
meaning. I can tell you from personal experience that when I was
recovering from a serious back injury about 15 years ago, I could ride a
fixed gear but I couldn't ride a normal bike - mind you, I have no idea
if this is significant in the grand scheme of things but I can tell you
that things are different when you're on a track, and even when you're
on track-style equipment like a fixed gear on the road.
If I could sum up my advice to you in a word, it would be "relax" - your
quest to improve has to start with being able to perform safely and,
especially since, I assume, you're not doing this for a living, anything
that causes you back pain after a ride is simply an unacceptable
compromise, even if it helped you be faster. OTOH, if you find you
prefer to race criteriums with a different size of crank than you use
for long road races because it makes you go faster at those shorter
distances, well, that would be an example of an OK compromise in my
book. Just don't forget that there are tradeoffs in any choice of
equipment and it is not - I repeat _not_ - an exact science.
-S-
== 2 of 3 ==
Date: Tues, Jul 26 2011 10:55 am
From: mtb Dad
I think most fitters seek out a position that is is more dependent on
the riders current flexibility and strength than actual anatomical
limitations. Its a compromise of comfort and power, often in a single
session, so there's little incentive to prescribe strength and
flexibility exercises and evolve a position that is more aero, or uses
a longer crank for hills, for example.
I do like a local physio who is a former high performance rider and
does fittings. She looks more at strength and flexibility of the
individual than the knee over pedal type rules of thumb. Still, it's
kinda one shot deal, vs a plan to work towards an ideal.
== 3 of 3 ==
Date: Tues, Jul 26 2011 1:26 pm
From: thirty-six
On Jul 26, 5:10 pm, "Steve Freides" <st...@kbnj.com> wrote:
> thirty-six wrote:
> > On Jul 26, 3:38 am, "Steve Freides" <st...@kbnj.com> wrote:
> >> thirty-six wrote:
>
> >>> I'm trying to sort out that formula to help others.
>
> >> You've answered this one already by yourself - you know what works
> >> for you, so use it.
>
> > First of all, I don't know what works best or with least effort per
> > mile. It could well be that a 5" or 6" long crank be best. Does the
> > way I've assessed for correct length stand up to scrutiny and so used
> > for others or is there a damning reason to go shorter still? I do
> > understand the claim for an aerodynamic pursuiters position being
> > benefitted by shorter cranks to assist in breathing and reduce
> > aerodynamic drag. That's not a particular requirement for me. A 5"
> > crank would also require a frame change, so the evidence would have to
> > be strong to get me to that size. I suspect that I should be able to
> > use 100mm in saddle length which would indicate that the cranks need
> > to be around 50mm shorter than they are (just because I'm so
> > restricted with them). But this would suggest 120mm cranks. Even a
> > 5" (127mm) crank sounds too small, but I've been conditioned to 165 to
> > 175 as the norm.
>
> There is no "perfect" to be had here. As engineers say, everything is a
> compromise. You have to pick you priorities.
>
> As but one example, I'm sure a lot of pro's hate their TT position but,
> as long as it doesn't get them injured, that's just tough luck for them
> because performance comes before everything else when you're getting
> paid for your performance.
>
> Don't forget, either, that track bikes (your example of pursuiters) are
> fixed gears and, as such, crank length has at least a somewhat different
> meaning. I can tell you from personal experience that when I was
> recovering from a serious back injury about 15 years ago, I could ride a
> fixed gear but I couldn't ride a normal bike - mind you, I have no idea
> if this is significant in the grand scheme of things but I can tell you
> that things are different when you're on a track, and even when you're
> on track-style equipment like a fixed gear on the road.
>
> If I could sum up my advice to you in a word, it would be "relax" - your
> quest to improve has to start with being able to perform safely and,
> especially since, I assume, you're not doing this for a living, anything
> that causes you back pain after a ride is simply an unacceptable
> compromise, even if it helped you be faster. OTOH, if you find you
> prefer to race criteriums with a different size of crank than you use
> for long road races because it makes you go faster at those shorter
> distances, well, that would be an example of an OK compromise in my
> book. Just don't forget that there are tradeoffs in any choice of
> equipment and it is not - I repeat _not_ - an exact science.
>
> -S-
This is all very interesting but I am not competetively active nor am
I likely to be. Yes, I'd prefer to go out for six hours on the bike
and get home and not have to worry about having to have a soak,
massage and bed rest to help recouperate. If I think objectively it
means I should look for the shortest available cranks off the shelf
with 9/16" pedal fitting, at a low price... and see what happens.
Supposedly I'll need smaller gears. Hmm, my ex-racing bike is
slightly undergeared as it is, but I doubt that a135mm BCD crankset
exists in the sort of length I am looking for (closer to 120mm than
170mm).
I'm too tired now to think much further at the minute but have been
considering how the rotation of position as a rider moves into the
hooks should move him forward on the saddle. It seems I could have
used bars with a greater reach and drop than I did. I favoured the
tight bends because my hands were secure over rough tracks, and race
circuits are not necessarily on the best roads.
==============================================================================
TOPIC: I didn't dream this
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.racing/t/c3911a80efcc65e3?hl=en
==============================================================================
== 1 of 6 ==
Date: Tues, Jul 26 2011 9:24 am
From: --D-y
On Jul 26, 9:35 am, "A. Dumas" <alexan...@dumas.fr.invalid> wrote:
> Brad Anders wrote:
> > Great photos, love #27, only got to see that from behind on the TV
> > coverage.
>
> I love the caption, more or less justifying the strike: "Alberto
> Contador punches a spectator dressed in medical garb who had been
> running alongside him sticking a stethoscope in Contador's face as he
> climbed Alpe d'Huez during the 19th stage on July 22, 2011."
One of the glorious moments in the TdF 2011.
I didn't see any punishment handed down by the org, either.
One dipshit holy-pants jerk gets his piehole punched. Looked like it
was a good strike, too.
"Suitable for framing".
--D-y
== 2 of 6 ==
Date: Tues, Jul 26 2011 9:53 am
From: DC
--D-y said the following on 27/07/2011 12:24 AM:
> One of the glorious moments in the TdF 2011.
> I didn't see any punishment handed down by the org, either.
>
> One dipshit holy-pants jerk gets his piehole punched. Looked like it
> was a good strike, too.
I did read one person suggest that Contador mistook him for a drug
tester :-)
== 3 of 6 ==
Date: Tues, Jul 26 2011 11:24 am
From: Ryan Cousineau
On Jul 26, 9:24 am, --D-y <dustoyev...@mac.com> wrote:
> On Jul 26, 9:35 am, "A. Dumas" <alexan...@dumas.fr.invalid> wrote:
>
> > Brad Anders wrote:
> > > Great photos, love #27, only got to see that from behind on the TV
> > > coverage.
>
> > I love the caption, more or less justifying the strike: "Alberto
> > Contador punches a spectator dressed in medical garb who had been
> > running alongside him sticking a stethoscope in Contador's face as he
> > climbed Alpe d'Huez during the 19th stage on July 22, 2011."
>
> One of the glorious moments in the TdF 2011.
> I didn't see any punishment handed down by the org, either.
>
> One dipshit holy-pants jerk gets his piehole punched. Looked like it
> was a good strike, too.
I saw it on TV, and he was not the usual stupid runner, keeping his
distance from the riders. He reached out with the stethoscope and had
it in Contador's face. It was pretty ridiculous. Also, the punch looks
less violent in real-time than it does in the photo: more an attempt
to push the clown clear than to clean his clock.
Video here, but likely to disappear as soon as ASO notices:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yhuHsW3pnPY
I think the non-punishment of Contador was appropriate.
== 4 of 6 ==
Date: Tues, Jul 26 2011 12:22 pm
From: Ryan Cousineau
On Jul 26, 6:26 am, RicodJour <ricodj...@aol.com> wrote:
> On Jul 26, 1:37 am, Ryan Cousineau <rcous...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> >http://www.boston.com/bigpicture/2011/07/2011_tour_de_france_part_2.h...
>
> > Also photo 11 is maybe the best of the Tour this year.
>
> I was hoping you wouldn't choose this one:http://inapcache.boston.com/universal/site_graphics/blogs/bigpicture/...
>
> Some very good desktop backgrounds in those pictures. Thanks for
> posting the link.
>
> What was up with the guy in the background of the picture you posted?
> He's grabbing his crotch while looking at those two burly guys dressed
> up as hooker nurses or whatever they were supposed to be.
>
> R
One "naughty" nurse, one Smurfette. I can't account for the guy in the
background, but that's as likely to be an ill-timed "adjustment" as
anything else, or even an absentminded funny-looking hand placement.
Or he's, um, saluting the riders.
== 5 of 6 ==
Date: Tues, Jul 26 2011 2:28 pm
From: --D-y
On Jul 26, 1:24 pm, Ryan Cousineau <rcous...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Jul 26, 9:24 am, --D-y <dustoyev...@mac.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Jul 26, 9:35 am, "A. Dumas" <alexan...@dumas.fr.invalid> wrote:
>
> > > Brad Anders wrote:
> > > > Great photos, love #27, only got to see that from behind on the TV
> > > > coverage.
>
> > > I love the caption, more or less justifying the strike: "Alberto
> > > Contador punches a spectator dressed in medical garb who had been
> > > running alongside him sticking a stethoscope in Contador's face as he
> > > climbed Alpe d'Huez during the 19th stage on July 22, 2011."
>
> > One of the glorious moments in the TdF 2011.
> > I didn't see any punishment handed down by the org, either.
>
> > One dipshit holy-pants jerk gets his piehole punched. Looked like it
> > was a good strike, too.
>
> I saw it on TV, and he was not the usual stupid runner, keeping his
> distance from the riders. He reached out with the stethoscope and had
> it in Contador's face. It was pretty ridiculous. Also, the punch looks
> less violent in real-time than it does in the photo: more an attempt
> to push the clown clear than to clean his clock.
>
> Video here, but likely to disappear as soon as ASO notices:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yhuHsW3pnPY
>
> I think the non-punishment of Contador was appropriate.
Looked too brief to be fined as "con collé", if I may second-guess the
race officials.
Good hard little jab,though; the head went back and he changed his
mind. Sorta like a decent jaw kick on a dog that forgets its
boundaries.
Nice back-to-bizness on Alberto's part.
--D-y
== 6 of 6 ==
Date: Tues, Jul 26 2011 3:30 pm
From: Brad Anders
On Jul 26, 7:35 am, "A. Dumas" <alexan...@dumas.fr.invalid> wrote:
> Brad Anders wrote:
> > Great photos, love #27, only got to see that from behind on the TV
> > coverage.
>
> I love the caption, more or less justifying the strike: "Alberto
> Contador punches a spectator dressed in medical garb who had been
> running alongside him sticking a stethoscope in Contador's face as he
> climbed Alpe d'Huez during the 19th stage on July 22, 2011."
Reminded me of Armstrong offing that guy with the double syringes.
==============================================================================
TOPIC: Market value of Cervelo & BMC
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.racing/t/9e4f5f2b3efb3b81?hl=en
==============================================================================
== 1 of 3 ==
Date: Tues, Jul 26 2011 9:57 am
From: Amit Ghosh
On Jul 25, 9:35 pm, Ryan Cousineau <rcous...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Jul 24, 10:07 pm, Randall <randall.shim...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Does anyone have any idea of what Cervelo or BMC is worth...? It's
> > hard to tell because these are private companies. But I still find it
> > hard to believe they can afford to sponsor a pro team. Cervelo is no
> > longer a main sponsor however.
>
> As you said, Cervelo is no longer a title sponsor. I think we can
> safely assume Garmin has deeper pockets.
>
> http://lavamagazine.com/features/kona/bike-count#axzz1T9KLLD23
>
> The 2010 Ironman bike count* found somewhere close to a million
> dollars in Cervelos at the event. 468 bikes, more than 1/4 of the
> total. USA Triathlon says they have 135k members, which is way higher
> than I expected. So that argues that you're not crazy if you think
> Cervelo has sold 30,000 bicycles just to American tri-geeks serious
> enough to do at least a sprint Tri.
>
> A little hand-waving suggests to me that their annual sales are
> probably in the 10-50 thousand bikes, which is a big range, but only
> one order of magnitude. Let's call that annual revenues in the $10-50
> million range. I'm probably optimistic, though.
>
> http://www.manta.com/c/mm46ggr/trek-usa
>
> This profile of Trek says they're a company with revenues in the
> $20-50 million range. I'm almost certain Cervelo isn't as big as Trek.
> I'd assume then that 10,000 bicycles and $10 million annual revenue is
> closer to the truth than $50 million.
>
> Either figure is probably not enough to be the sponsor of a ProTour
> team. They run in the range of $10 million annual budgets, I think.
> ($6M for a cheap team?) Title sponsor is probably most of that cost. I
> don't think Cervelo could spend so much of its annual revenues on a
> ProTour sponsorship, and they said as much when they "merged" with
> Garmin. But also, the Cervelo Test Team was a Pro Continental team,
> not full ProTour.
>
> Conclusions: CEO/DSVaughtersis running a business on the same
> revenue-scale as Cervelo co-founders Vroomen and White, though a very
> different sort of company (Garmin-Cervelo has, in a way, 30 customers
> (its sponsors), and maybe 5 of those are really crucial to its
> existence).
dumbass,
you need to check your numbers.
http://www.profitguide.com/article/4640--the-amazing-race-cerv-eacute-lo-cycles--page1
http://www.jsonline.com/news/29538074.html
"The sponsorship helped power Cervélo's revenue from $806,000 in 1999
to $11.1 million by 2004, a five-year growth rate of 1,276%."
estimating a 20% (quite possibly on the low side) or so annual growth
rate give me something more like $35mm, in comparison treks revenues
are about $700mm
btw. vaughters thinks that protour teams should get a cut of the media
revenue. that implies to me that in order to receive revenue they
should be required to make an initial investment (ie. buy a
franchise). how much would a reasonable payout be so that team have
some stability? $5mm ?
right now the yield on 10-yr italian bonds is 5.5%, so to make $5mm
you need to invest $90mm. it's probably fair to say that the risk of
the italian govt. defaulting with 10 years is probably only a little
worse than protour cycling failing to pay it's obligations.
so the model that vaughters envisons would require an upfront
investment of at least $100mm (otherwise they are giving away money
for free) - had he considered that ?
== 2 of 3 ==
Date: Tues, Jul 26 2011 10:43 am
From: "Mike Jacoubowsky"
=============
This profile of Trek says they're a company with revenues in the
$20-50 million range. I'm almost certain Cervelo isn't as big as Trek.
I'd assume then that 10,000 bicycles and $10 million annual revenue is
closer to the truth than $50 million.
=============
Trek's revenues are closer to $800m than $50m. While it's not a public
company, that information is relatively common-knowledge and found in
press releases from the company.
--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReactionBicycles.com
"Ryan Cousineau" <rcousine@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:70d92e77-9260-49c7-b531-0792e65db8a3@r5g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
On Jul 24, 10:07 pm, Randall <randall.shim...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Does anyone have any idea of what Cervelo or BMC is worth...? It's
> hard to tell because these are private companies. But I still find it
> hard to believe they can afford to sponsor a pro team. Cervelo is no
> longer a main sponsor however.
As you said, Cervelo is no longer a title sponsor. I think we can
safely assume Garmin has deeper pockets.
http://lavamagazine.com/features/kona/bike-count#axzz1T9KLLD23
The 2010 Ironman bike count* found somewhere close to a million
dollars in Cervelos at the event. 468 bikes, more than 1/4 of the
total. USA Triathlon says they have 135k members, which is way higher
than I expected. So that argues that you're not crazy if you think
Cervelo has sold 30,000 bicycles just to American tri-geeks serious
enough to do at least a sprint Tri.
A little hand-waving suggests to me that their annual sales are
probably in the 10-50 thousand bikes, which is a big range, but only
one order of magnitude. Let's call that annual revenues in the $10-50
million range. I'm probably optimistic, though.
http://www.manta.com/c/mm46ggr/trek-usa
This profile of Trek says they're a company with revenues in the
$20-50 million range. I'm almost certain Cervelo isn't as big as Trek.
I'd assume then that 10,000 bicycles and $10 million annual revenue is
closer to the truth than $50 million.
Either figure is probably not enough to be the sponsor of a ProTour
team. They run in the range of $10 million annual budgets, I think.
($6M for a cheap team?) Title sponsor is probably most of that cost. I
don't think Cervelo could spend so much of its annual revenues on a
ProTour sponsorship, and they said as much when they "merged" with
Garmin. But also, the Cervelo Test Team was a Pro Continental team,
not full ProTour.
Conclusions: CEO/DS Vaughters is running a business on the same
revenue-scale as Cervelo co-founders Vroomen and White, though a very
different sort of company (Garmin-Cervelo has, in a way, 30 customers
(its sponsors), and maybe 5 of those are really crucial to its
existence).
Pro cycling teams are really big fundraising entities, more or less
acting as conduits of sponsor money towards rider salaries and racing
expenses. It's probably one of those businesses where you think that
one thing (bike racing) matters, and in fact your day-to-day business
turns out to be sponsor seduction.
Rihs' milkshake brings all the sponsors to the yard,
*I only follow this survey in search of tri-mocking fodder.
== 3 of 3 ==
Date: Tues, Jul 26 2011 12:45 pm
From: Ryan Cousineau
On Jul 26, 9:57 am, Amit Ghosh <amit.gh...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Jul 25, 9:35 pm, Ryan Cousineau <rcous...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Jul 24, 10:07 pm, Randall <randall.shim...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > Does anyone have any idea of what Cervelo or BMC is worth...? It's
> > > hard to tell because these are private companies. But I still find it
> > > hard to believe they can afford to sponsor a pro team. Cervelo is no
> > > longer a main sponsor however.
>
> > As you said, Cervelo is no longer a title sponsor. I think we can
> > safely assume Garmin has deeper pockets.
>
> >http://lavamagazine.com/features/kona/bike-count#axzz1T9KLLD23
>
> > The 2010 Ironman bike count* found somewhere close to a million
> > dollars in Cervelos at the event. 468 bikes, more than 1/4 of the
> > total. USA Triathlon says they have 135k members, which is way higher
> > than I expected. So that argues that you're not crazy if you think
> > Cervelo has sold 30,000 bicycles just to American tri-geeks serious
> > enough to do at least a sprint Tri.
>
> > A little hand-waving suggests to me that their annual sales are
> > probably in the 10-50 thousand bikes, which is a big range, but only
> > one order of magnitude. Let's call that annual revenues in the $10-50
> > million range. I'm probably optimistic, though.
>
> >http://www.manta.com/c/mm46ggr/trek-usa
>
> > This profile of Trek says they're a company with revenues in the
> > $20-50 million range. I'm almost certain Cervelo isn't as big as Trek.
> > I'd assume then that 10,000 bicycles and $10 million annual revenue is
> > closer to the truth than $50 million.
>
> > Either figure is probably not enough to be the sponsor of a ProTour
> > team. They run in the range of $10 million annual budgets, I think.
> > ($6M for a cheap team?) Title sponsor is probably most of that cost. I
> > don't think Cervelo could spend so much of its annual revenues on a
> > ProTour sponsorship, and they said as much when they "merged" with
> > Garmin. But also, the Cervelo Test Team was a Pro Continental team,
> > not full ProTour.
>
> > Conclusions: CEO/DSVaughtersis running a business on the same
> > revenue-scale as Cervelo co-founders Vroomen and White, though a very
> > different sort of company (Garmin-Cervelo has, in a way, 30 customers
> > (its sponsors), and maybe 5 of those are really crucial to its
> > existence).
>
> dumbass,
>
> you need to check your numbers.
>
> http://www.profitguide.com/article/4640--the-amazing-race-cerv-eacute...
>
> http://www.jsonline.com/news/29538074.html
>
> "The sponsorship helped power Cervélo's revenue from $806,000 in 1999
> to $11.1 million by 2004, a five-year growth rate of 1,276%."
>
> estimating a 20% (quite possibly on the low side) or so annual growth
> rate give me something more like $35mm, in comparison treks revenues
> are about $700mm
Dumbass, thanks for the corrections. I should have realized Trek's
numbers didn't pass the smell test.
But I'm pretty pleased that my extrapolations from the Kona bike count
pretty much nailed the size of Cervelo. Now to get my research
abilities up to the level of my guessing abilities.
> btw. vaughters thinks that protour teams should get a cut of the media
> revenue. that implies to me that in order to receive revenue they
> should be required to make an initial investment (ie. buy a
> franchise). how much would a reasonable payout be so that team have
> some stability? $5mm ?
>
> right now the yield on 10-yr italian bonds is 5.5%, so to make $5mm
> you need to invest $90mm. it's probably fair to say that the risk of
> the italian govt. defaulting with 10 years is probably only a little
> worse than protour cycling failing to pay it's obligations.
>
> so the model that vaughters envisons would require an upfront
> investment of at least $100mm (otherwise they are giving away money
> for free) - had he considered that ?
Well...this is business, not fairness. I'd guess what Vaughters is
implying is that the pro riders are more important to the TdF than
whatever it is ASO does. I'm skeptical. The TdF is logistically
complex sporting event; you don't just book the arena and make sure
the players show up.
To put it another way, if Vaughters ever really pressed the point, I
think the ASO could just buy the Giro and the two other ProTour events
they don't own*, and start their own series. Which seems more
plausible:
1) ASO offers a buyout directly to all current ProTour riders. They
get reorganized into teams of the ASO's choosing (national teams
again? Why not?) and sent to do all the ASO races, plus whichever non-
ASO races want to pay a start fee to get the ASOTour riders (so MSR,
Het-Nieusblad, and the Tour de Suisse still have some reason to
exist). ASO sells the sponsorships using an internal-team model.
2) the teams band together and vow to organize their own races on team-
friendly terms, funded by...love? Bob Stapleton? Current sponsors who
barely keep the lights on for the $200mm worth of teams out there?
3) The UCI...HA HA HA HA HA HA!
Answering my own question, ProTour and Continental teams are like
mayflies. In the last decade we've seen teams fold up with great
regularity, sometimes in the middle of the season, sometimes nearly so
(Coast/Bianchi being the most high-profile case of a team getting
bailed out by a secondary sponsor, in that case so Jan could race the
Tour). They are, as I suggested before, built around a fussy agency
model. The Tour has both the money (TV$) and the power (those races),
but while I think the ASO could raise the capital to take over the
role of the teams, I don't think the teams could raise the capital to
take over the role of the ASO.
I guess this is another way of making your argument: the Tour isn't
going to give up something for nothing. The teams have no leverage and
relatively little money. Bike racing isn't really a pro sport, is it?
*Seriously: http://www.letour.com/2011/TDF/COURSE/us/qui_sommes_nous.html
==============================================================================
TOPIC: Photos of Armstrong In Grenoble and/or Paris
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.racing/t/8f20bc81b62ad48c?hl=en
==============================================================================
== 1 of 3 ==
Date: Tues, Jul 26 2011 12:39 pm
From: Anton Berlin
Stocker
== 2 of 3 ==
Date: Tues, Jul 26 2011 2:03 pm
From: BL
On 7/26/2011 3:39 PM, Anton Berlin wrote:
> Stocker
>
Still no photos anywhere. If you read his Tweets, the way they are
phrased could be read as his not being actually in France.
== 3 of 3 ==
Date: Tues, Jul 26 2011 3:46 pm
From: Jimmy July
On 7/26/2011 2:03 PM, BL wrote:
> On 7/26/2011 3:39 PM, Anton Berlin wrote:
>> Stocker
>>
> Still no photos anywhere. If you read his Tweets, the way they are
> phrased could be read as his not being actually in France.
You're right! When he tweeted "Made it to Grenoble. Gonna be one helluva
a race today" he might have been at the Grenoble, KANSAS NASCAR track.
There probably isn't a Grenoble in KS, but work with me here.
==============================================================================
TOPIC: Moron is only spelled with 1 m - update from Utah on Action Figurine in
Jail
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.racing/t/50c7e60b00992b3a?hl=en
==============================================================================
== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Tues, Jul 26 2011 12:47 pm
From: Anton Berlin
On Jul 26, 7:27 am, BLafferty <lafferty1...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Jul 25, 7:01 pm, Anton Berlin <truth_88...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > Reuters posted this story today - from the article
>
> > Law enforcement officials say the man is "fairly well spoken and
> > educated," but very guarded about his identity. As a result of several
> > short conversations with him, officers believe he may not be from
> > Utah.
>
> >http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/07/25/us-mystery-prisoner-odd-idU...
>
> The guy looks familiar but I can't figure out why. It's the smile that
> triggers something.
He passes for "well spoken and educated" in Utah so he ain't from
round dees parts.
==============================================================================
TOPIC: Most bizarre moments of final stage
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.racing/t/7107ac85e5422ced?hl=en
==============================================================================
== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Tues, Jul 26 2011 12:55 pm
From: Ryan Cousineau
On Jul 24, 5:40 pm, ilan <ilan...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I am not sure how to order these:
>
> 1. Head of France Television sports Daniel Bilalian talking about this
> year's Tour and the inspiring performance of Thierry Voeckler.
The presence of a Frenchman at the sharp end of the GC rankings is so
baffling that I believe all France is in a state of cognitive
dissonance. I imagine headlines like "FRENCHMAN FOURTH IN TOUR DE
FRANCE! Evans finishes first."
> 2. Andy Rihs being asked how it feels like to win the Tour de France.
Awesome. I wish I'd seen that.
== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Tues, Jul 26 2011 3:12 pm
From: ilan
Actually, I was surprised that it was never once mentioned that
Jalabert had finished 4th in the Tour, his highest placing, especially
since he's the TV commentator. So that placing doesn't carry that much
weight, it isn't considered a career highlight for Moreau, and they
didn't mention Sean Kelly or Steve Bauer either, not even as evidence
that 4th is regularly obtainable by sprinters and classics riders.
-ilan
On Jul 26, 9:55 pm, Ryan Cousineau <rcous...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Jul 24, 5:40 pm, ilan <ilan...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > I am not sure how to order these:
>
> > 1. Head of France Television sports Daniel Bilalian talking about this
> > year's Tour and the inspiring performance of Thierry Voeckler.
>
> The presence of a Frenchman at the sharp end of the GC rankings is so
> baffling that I believe all France is in a state of cognitive
> dissonance. I imagine headlines like "FRENCHMAN FOURTH IN TOUR DE
> FRANCE! Evans finishes first."
>
> > 2. Andy Rihs being asked how it feels like to win the Tour de France.
>
> Awesome. I wish I'd seen that.
==============================================================================
TOPIC: Did I dream this?
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.racing/t/c02c7010d067493b?hl=en
==============================================================================
== 1 of 4 ==
Date: Tues, Jul 26 2011 3:49 pm
From: "atriage"
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/contador-cas-hearing-postponed-until-novembe
r
== 2 of 4 ==
Date: Tues, Jul 26 2011 3:51 pm
From: "atriage"
"atriage" <atriage@satriage.net> wrote in message
news:bbCdnXvwtekMr7LTnZ2dnUVZ8sSdnZ2d@brightview.co.uk...
>
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/contador-cas-hearing-postponed-until-novembe
> r
Line wrap...I'm on an old computer...use cut and paste.
== 3 of 4 ==
Date: Tues, Jul 26 2011 2:59 pm
From: "Mark J."
On 7/26/2011 3:49 PM, atriage wrote:
> http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/contador-cas-hearing-postponed-until-november
CAS hadn't heard that Alberto didn't want to ride the Vuelta?
Mark J.
== 4 of 4 ==
Date: Tues, Jul 26 2011 4:39 pm
From: "atriage"
"Mark J." <MarkUseNet@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:j0ndc1$970$1@dont-email.me...
> On 7/26/2011 3:49 PM, atriage wrote:
> >
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/contador-cas-hearing-postponed-until-novembe
r
>
> CAS hadn't heard that Alberto didn't want to ride the Vuelta?
>
Lol, obviously not, Bertie screwed up big time by forgetting to ring the
idiots up and tell them.
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